Installing Linux on my laptop?

[Ron]

OK, so it has been about 7-8 years since I installed *nix... and I think it was Solaris 8 when it was first released for Intel machines. It was on a spare desktop lying around at work.

I have an aging laptoppy, a 1GHz desktop P4 with 512M RAM. I am thinking about installing Linux on it. I use in for websurfing only in my den.

I'm a little leery of wiping my XP OS , can I start with a dual boot setup in limited space then overwrite windows later, or will it require a completely new install?

SOOOOO, I have no clue where to even begin. Well, maybe a little clue, but not really. Sort of. I expect I'll need to download a distro from somewhere and burn a CD. Any recommendations? Will the distro have all of the right drivers for a Gateway Laptop, including my Belkin PCMCIA 802.11g? Will there be a GUI included or will I have to go and find a shell GUI like I did way back when?

I also assume that I can run an office package of some sort that will look like the M$ apps, and there will be a browser available that will allow me to view all the web's multimedia online... is all of this a good assumption?

Once I've got it all set up, I plan on running a LAMP environment and maybe a webserver that I could connect to over my internal WiFi network so I could do a little offline development.

I am open to all suggestions!

TIA

[Smithjp]

can I start with a dual boot setup in limited space then overwrite windows later, or will it require a completely new install?

If currently your Laptop is running Windows XP then there will be no issue in installing Linux as a second OS. You don't need to wipe XP or a completely new install. You just need to Unallocate space from XP so that the Linux can be installed on it.

Installing Linux on Windows is better as Linux will not override the MBR and you will get the option to choose which OS you want to load. But if you will install Windows on Linux, it will override the MBR and you will not get an option for Linux.

I expect I'll need to download a distro from somewhere and burn a CD. Any recommendations? Will the distro have all of the right drivers for a Gateway Laptop, including my Belkin PCMCIA 802.11g? Will there be a GUI included or will I have to go and find a shell GUI like I did way back when?

Burning a CD would be fine and not all drivers will be found in it. You need to search the drivers and install it. As far as GUI is concerned, it depends upon the installation CD. If you will burn a Server CD then it will not have any GUI. GUI requires X server and for this you need to download complete set and burn the CDs around 3~4 CDs will be a complete set providing all packages and GUI.

I also assume that I can run an office package of some sort that will look like the M$ apps, and there will be a browser available that will allow me to view all the web's multimedia online... is all of this a good assumption?

You can have OpenOffice that is compatible with MS Office too and you will find the same applications Excel, Powerpoint, Word etc in it too. I think by default Mozilla is installed.

[Ron]

I understand that if I want to add a server package like Apache or whatever that I'll have to scout that out. That's fine. It's a little disappointing that drivers for established hardware won't be in the distribution.

Do youhave a recommendation for what Linux I should get and where I should grab it? Are there versions and branches and stable releases and such?

THANKS!

[Gwaihir]

There's a brand new Ubuntu realeased just yesterday (7.04, 'Feisty Fawn'). It takes pride in supporting as much hardware as possible (to the point that the inclusion of so many non-open source drivers gets criticism ). "Scouting out" extra components like adding Apache to a desktop setup is fairly easy; you just tell the package manager that you want it and it goes to fetch and install.

There are many distributions and often you can indeed get unstable releases too, if you want to (but why would you want to start there?). Ubuntu is a deriviate of Debian. It's a very active and well funded project aiming for the "Linux at the desktop" experience. That means it relatively has a lot of ease of use for the non Linux savvy.

[Spathiphyllum]

Ron,

As you know, there are zillions of flavors and versions of said flavors. I used to prefer Debian but find that now, RedHat derivatives seem to have evolved the "best."

I recently tried Fedora Core (open source, current stable release) in anticipation of running it as a VPS here at Jag. Setup was a breeze excepting for an install routine that self-selected the wrong core for my particular CPU. Fedora support WIKI documented the error and supplied the replacement process to get the optimal core after initial install. So, the install was quite easy, ran well with little interaction, had support typical of linux communities, and detected all of my hardware.

Also, the GTK desktop GUI is pleasant, but you can 'yum' KDE, too.

Fedora has made great strides in creating a user-friendly linux OS. Much improved over even two or three years ago. Core is the freebie (no mandatory fee for license) version of Enterprise and it has some pretty good security features to limit what runs with what authority. Bundles are easily installed with any required dependencies added as the installer determines. Really, a fine OS. I haven't tried dual-booting with Win32/64, so I cannot address Fedora Core and it's cooperation with Windows' boot manager. Debian played well in a dual-boot years ago ('Woody' I think it was), but I've since converted to "RedHats".

[Gwaihir]

How stable is Fedora Core these days and how hard / easy is it to keep it current? When I tried it (FC 1 throug 3) I found it too oriented towards experimenting: unstable stuff keeps slipping in, each new edition does a LOT of things different for little reason (mainly just a it *might* be a cooler way, so let's try) and there's no upgrade path or lasting support for older versions; you're supposed to just install the new version from scratch. I can't see these things change fundamentally, as the experimental nature is what FC as RedHat's playground is all about..

Since then I've switched to Debian and come to love it; its package and dependecy management (apt based) feels so much better to me than those RPMS and the long support cycle is a true blessing. I've only worked with servers though, so long term stability and support were the key factors, not latest GUI or suitability for desktop use. Nevertheless, if I were to put Linux on a desktop now I'd go for the Debian way, which means Ubuntu or Debian itself. Suse would be next in line to consider.

[Spathiphyllum]

Gwaihir,

Fedora Core 8 seems stable enough right now. It's my first foray into RedHat as a desktop OS and it is working well so far. It has lots of toys bundled and ready to go along with standard fare. Updating is a breeze with its package manager. Point, click, watch, done. Reboots only required for boot manager or kernel updates. Skip packages you don't want or are unsure you desire until they've been adequately reviewed.

As far as upgrading paths - yeah, on a server, that's a big deal. Much less so for a desktop/laptop that will probably see many changes if not become obsolete in a relatively short time. If you can get a stable OS on a laptop and get it to last ~4 years, you're doing well. After that, and probably long before, you'll be getting annoyed with how old and slow your laptop is and wouldn't it be about time to dump it for the Pentium XXIII with 2 bazillion bytes of octabus RAM. I think a core release, when stable, could get you through several years.

Debian is a fine distro, but I've had stability issues with it, too. Apt can muck up an install pretty easily because it will overwrite new packages with old ones (during downgrades) and screw up dependencies. I've not had that happen yet with Fedora though yum probably can do the same thing. Command-line apt can be brutal. Powerful, but brutal. Also, my experience with getting Debian installed on old hardware has been more troublesome. X was a particular problem for me both in getting the X-server to recognize my mouse and my nVidia videocards (or video cards in general) when trying to optimize refresh rates. Default X ran at poor resolution and refresh rate - fine for stability during install but wholly inadequate in optimizing a good video card. If on a lap/desktop, you have to have the GUI optimized and user-friendly and ergonomically sound.

Interesting though. We both have switched allegiance 180 degrees.

So, would anyone like to break the tie?

[Ron]

Gee, I wonder why *nix hasn't taken over the home desktop market.

If I weren't so computer savvy, I'd be totally overwhelmed by making such a difficult choice (filled with buzzwords and concepts that weren't understood) and I'm not that computer savvy. My whole life on this board has been trying to make the point that I don't want to be a SysAdmin.. lol I have enough trouble keeping my application(s) up and running.

I still have no idea what to do, nor what is required, nor what would be easiest to install and maintain. help

[Spathiphyllum]

Typos - Fedora Core 6, not 8; GNOME, not GTK. Sorry. Recent compiling clouded my brain.

Ron, Get Fedora. Download Disk 1 and probably Disk 2. Burn the ISOs. Reboot your system with Disk 1 in drive. May need to identify some network connectivity parameters like DHCP and gateway IP. Once the basic install is done, use the 'yum' GUI package manager to update or shop around for new packages you want. It isn't that hard.

I'm skipping the dual boot guides. Too many options and I'm not taking responsibility for guiding you the wrong way.

Did I mention backing up old data before doing anything? Backup old data before doing anything.

Installing Fedora Core was as easy as installing Windows 2000. In fact it was easier since I didn't need to supply any drivers for my SCSI devices. You're just used to a Windows mindset, so any deviation from that seems frustrating.

[thisisit3]

Fedora Core 6 is a great operating system and you shouldn't have any problems getting it to work with your laptop, although i'm a Fedora Ambassador, so i'm a little biased

Its rather simple:

1: Download gparted live cd, which uses ntfsresize and will allow you to shrink your windoze partition: GParted LiveCD.

2: Download the DVD image of Fedora Core 6 (or CD images if your laptop doesn't have a DVD drive): Fedora Core 6 Mirrors

3: Boot from the gparted livecd from step 1 and shrink your windoze partition, then put the Fedora DVD (or CD1) and start the installation of Fedora. Just make sure you allow it to install GRUB, the boot manager which allows you to choose your operating system at boot.

Thats about it really, Fedora is really easy to use, you shouldn't have a single problem.... really

[jason]

As I've mentioned on here a few times, I've been running a virtual CentOS setup in VMWare for a few months now. I can't really speak for driver compatibility because VMWare emulates a pretty standard set of hardware, but the install was pretty straightforward--basically as easy as installing Wiondows. I specifically used the full (non-server) version so that I could get the X GUI (I'm running GNOME) and all that. Though I was primarily looking to set up a development server, I wanted a full featured system to play around in also.

CentOS is, of course, a port of RHEL and is marketed more as a server OS, but it does just as well as a desktop system, in my opinion. I haven't played wth any of the Fedora builds, but I'd suspect similar results, with the caveat that others have expressed that Fedora is somewhat experimental. I've also played with Ubuntu a little as well, but considering that I have 10+ years experience with Red Hat and no Debian experience, I just felt more comfortable in CentOS. That's not to downplay Ubuntu, though. It is a nice desktop OS and it is designed to get desktop systems up and running quickly and without hardware issues. A buddy of mine (a software engineer) runs nothing but Ubuntu on his work system and has no problem doing everything he needs to do.

As for apps OpenOffice.org is a great replacement for MS Office (it works great on Windows, too, BTW). There is also Star Office, but I think you have to pay for that. If you're an Outlook user then you'll want Evolution, too. Both OpenOffice and Evolution are pretty standard issue in the Linux distros these days, as is Firefox for browsing.

There are also a whole bunch of great open source tools for X-Windows that work similarly to popular Windows apps: The GIMP (www.gimp.org, Photoshop), and Inkscape (www.inkscape.org, Illustrator) are two pretty powerful image editors, for example. And don't forget Eclipse for all of your programming needs.

Installing new software (provided you're happy with a standard setup) is actually easier than it is in Windows using the package managers...type one line (or use a gui) and you're done. Now zips to download or CDs to find. (Of course, as others have pointed out, use the installers diligently to avoid problems.)

That's my two cents.

--Jason

[Ron]

Thanks ALL,


One final (at the moment) re-question: if I set this up as dual boot, will I be able to have Linux take over the entire machine later, or will I have to re-install at that point?

...and a related: Will gparted allow me to grow/shrink the unix/windoze partitions at will?

...and a new one: Although there are several reasons for doing this project, one of the major driving forces behind the change is my realization that I might lose everything on this machine including the XP OS. This 30GB drive had a bad sector(s) that nearly derailed me at one point, as the antivirus boot sequence prevented me from locking the drive to perform a windows chkdsk. Windows chkdsk finds bad sectors then tells the drive at a low level to mark those sectors as bad and use some substitute sectors. Due to the previous errors, I assume that this drive will be failing sometime in the next year, and perhaps sooner rather than later.

Does Fedora have such a utility that will scan a disk, find bad sectors and tell the drive to mark and swap in?

[thisisit3]

What do you mean "take over"? Linux just boots, either via an MBR boot manager, a boot disk, a bootable CD, or even over the network. It doesn't affect the rest of the system in any way shape or form appart from installing the MBR boot manager. If you delete windoze, then you can just re-use the free space in Linux.

gparted allows to do all sorts of grow/shrinking, but i am not familiar with its restrictions. It always did what i wanted, but your kilometers may vary.

Yes, ext3 file system has a bad sector marking ability, but i wouldn't depend on something like that. If the drive is failing... then it will fail really bad and there won't be a way to recover... murthy's law #5954545: if something can go worse, it will.

[Ron]

By "take over" I meant to make it as if only Linux had ever been installed; coupled with gparted allocating all of the space to Linux you press the little button and the machine boots into Linux, rather than going through some sort of an OS choice at boot time, and with 100% of disk space allocated to Linux.

Of course my experience is a little dated...

Yes, I fully expect the drive to fail. I am trying to migrate from windows to Linux in anticipation of that event, as I won't pay for a new copy of XP, and I don't know if my 4 year old recovery disk will work at that point and why should I go through a windows installation and 5 years worth of OS updates when I really want to run a lightweight unix platform anyway. I'm using about 15GB total on this machine; the only thing I will miss is my then-state-of-the-art GPS system installed on here that I used cris-crossing the country back in 2003.

I'd also LOVE it if unix could tell this MB & CPU to run as if it was running on battery (lower CPU power consumption and speed) to reduce heat generated, and perhaps avoid the fan being on constantly.

[AlexKall]

If you consider to go with Fedora Core, go with CentOS, I know it's kinda weird to say that but they look idedical in my opinion. Install looks the same besides the fact that it says "CentOS" instead of Fedora Core 6. And CentOS is supported, Fedora Core support was droped this year so no more release of Fedora will come to light and no updates. Been thinking of changing OS on my VPS from Fedora to CentOS.