talk-back.ca

[Steve_Lillico]

I'm not receiving any e-mail, for any of my @talk-back.ca addresses, I have tried several things and the e-mail does not seem to getting to my e-mail program, I ftp and I see some of the e-mail has made it there but no further.

I have sent several e-mails using both my isp smtp and my contact form at http://www.talk-back.ca

Any help would be appreciated.

[Steve_Lillico]

Ok fixed, I had my e-mail address as part of the mailing list with c-panel and this was sending the mail into never never land.

[Vin DSL]

Cool! Another union member on JagPC! That makes two of us...

[the_ancient]

Originally posted by Vin DSL
Cool! Another union member on JagPC! That makes two of us...

Which is Two too many

Unions are the Single Biggest cuase of Outsourced labor


{ Now I put on mu Flame Suite}

[Oldfrog]

I've never belonged to a union but I did spend 15 years on the management team of a $100million/year corporation.

From that perspective, Osprey, your opinion is extremely simplistic. I was a junior member of the team and had very little input but I saw stuff going on that turned my stomach.

As a fairly small entrepeneur your viewpoint probably makes sense. From the higher gallery it really doesn't. People at any level are worthy of respect and, at least, a living wage for what they do and reward for what they have done.

I'm not worried about my job going offshore, I work in the immediate response, it's broke, I fix it, I charge you a bunch of money, world. With all the offshoring of software and tech support call centers where does that leave you? Is there really nobody in India that can undercut your prices? Would you like to live on the difference?

Never mind, just a pet peeve. As a military officer I had it ingrained into me to take care of my people, not to eat until they had, not to sleep until they had, and that they were the most important thing entrusted to me. In the corporate environment I was told that they were entirely unimportant and replaceable. I never quite made the transition.

One final note: In my corporate career I had one employee who stood out above all the rest in terms of knowledge, dedication, and willingness to do anything to get the job done. One year I sat in a meeting and tried to get him the minimal raise that the company offered. I was told, "He's only a computer operator and a nigger to boot, he's already being overpaid"! The only way I got him a raise at all that year was by telling them that if he didn't get one that I wouldn't accept one either. On another occasion we met our parent company's decree to cut costs by laying off some 30 long time employees. At the end of the year our president was rewarded with a bonus roughly 3 times the amount of the salary and benefit savings!

So don't knock the unions, they were formed, they have endured, and they are still here because people above don't really care.

Hush my mouth, </rant>

[wgiese]

Originally posted by Oldfrog

So don't knock the unions, they were formed, they have endured, and they are still here because people above don't really care.

Let's look at it from another perspective.

I've worked in a union shop for the last 15 years. Some of my observations:

I've seen complete slackers kept on the job, because management has no power to fire them. The best we can do is keep them all together in useless organizations, so folks know which area of the company to avoid.

I've seen highly skilled people paid less than idiots, because the contract only allows X number of people in senior level positions, which are filled with the aforementioned slackers.

I've seen our union constantly fight against bonuses and pay for performance. Anything that allows for recognition and reward of ingenuity and effort is considered a "bad thing".

I've seen people get caught red-handed for stealing big ticket items, grieve the process, and get off with a warning letter in their file.

I've seen people caught lying on their employment applications after being hired (falsely claiming they had college degrees for a position requiring them), then when discovered, allowed to stay in the position with no penalty.

I've seen the union supposedly fight for internal promotions, then grieve them when they happen simply because a union officer was on the list and didn't get the position.

Living in a non-right to work state (forced unionism is allowed in CA), I've fought like hell to ensure these losers can't have a dime of my money to spend on their causes, many of which are directly opposed to my religious beliefs. They have fought me every step of the way, even though I've offered to pay equivalent monies to mutually agreed upon non-profit, non-religious charities. Thanks to the great work and free assistance from The National Right To Work Foundation, I've been able to keep them at bay, but not without significant time and effort.

The union officers I've had the displeasure of knowing are the among the most corrupt individuals I have ever met, every one of which thinks the world and/or my employer owes them everything. In virtually every job classification, my employer pays well above prevailing wages, our benefits are obscenely good, and these folks still have the gumption to complain that they are mistreated, over-worked and under-paid.

Sorry - no compassion here. I've seen these folks up close for far too long, and any usefullness they may have is far outweighed by the corruptness and legalized extortion they demonstrate on a routine basis.

[Connie]

Originally posted by OspreyServices


Which is Two too many

Unions are the Single Biggest cuase of Outsourced labor


{ Now I put on mu Flame Suite}

I was a Union member in my younger days.

In my openion Unions have been a blessing and a curse. The blessings have probably outweighed the curse.

On the plus side for Unions working conditions are better, and wages are better than they might be otherwise, regardless of where you work. I won't get into the negatives. I believe that overall Unions have been a benefit to our Ntaion.

[the_ancient]

LOL, I have worked for both Unionized, and non Unionized Companies

Most of the non-unionized compaines I worked for worked under contracts with unionized compaines


I have been in Factories and Warehouses that I could not get a Fork Truck Driver to move a pallet 5 feet to the left for me because "it was not his job" though and could stand to talk to the other Fork Truck Drivers for 30 mins on the clock


I have had people tell me I could not Rehang a Picture in my office because that was Union Job and I had to wait 3 days for the Manteniance Crew to do it

One of my Last Warehouse Employments was with a Contractor for Caterpiller, I went from the main Plan in IL to the on in IN, the IL plant is union, the IN plant is not,

Walk in to either and you can tell the additudes and work ethic of the IN plant is MUCH HIGHER and MUCH BETTER than the IL plant, and from what the supers have told me the pay/benifiets in actually BETTER at the IN plant because it non-union

In the last Decade I have not seen one single good thing come out of unions,

Yes they had there purpose, but that time has passed a LONG time ago.....

[Ron]

Stupid unions? No way! They always fight for the right principles! They advise their members well! Think of how good PATCO did for the air traffic controllers! They can be rehired now!

My dad co-owned and managed a leather garment factory in Boston for many decades after his father passed it down to him and his brother.

Near the end, around 1984, the business was being drained by 22% interest rates (accounts-receivable guaranteed). (In the garment business, you sell product, borrow money, buy materials, manufacture finished goods, sell more product, buy more materials, sell more product, manufacture more finished goods, ship, and then hope that people pay according to terms, usually 30-90 days later.

The ILGWU demanded an increase for their piecework employees. My dad explained that the business couldn't afford the increase, and brought in his accountant to show the books. The union refused to budge. My dad said: I can't afford the increase, I will close the factory. The union didn't budge.

So, the choice was to either contract out the manufacturing offshore, or go out of business. 35 people were laid off when he decided to close the business and then sold the factory (there was no market for the business) to a guy who wanted to make leather ties. The tie guy went out of business a few months later.

Yay Union!
"Look for the union label
When you are buying a coat, dress or blouse
Remember somewhere our union's sewing
Our wages going
To feed the kitty and pay the boss"

[Oldfrog]

Wow, some very interesting perspectives in this group. Maybe it really is true that "Cream and Bastards rise to the top, the good people are all on the bottom"; at both ends of the stick. If so, that is a real shame. Don't know what else I could add to this discussion so think that I will just sit back and watch.

[Steve_Lillico]

Yes I am a Union member and I also work for a very large Union as a result I cannot resist responding to many of the comments I see in this thread.

"my employer pays well above prevailing wages, our benefits are obscenely good"

What a wonderful company you work for, I'm sure the company constantly informs you of how much better off you would be without a Union, and I'm sure this is true.................Notttttttttttt.

You need to visit my web-site and listen to the music, because because music is a great teacher, you think your excellent wages and benefits are a product of falling from the sky, think about it for a second without the mis-guided corporate rant, is there a chance these wages and benefits are the result of having a Union in place?.

"I've seen our union constantly fight against bonuses and pay for performance."

Yes this is true, Unions typically fight against these because of past practice and experience has educated us that employers refuse these rewards for prejudical and discriminatory reasons, despite this education Unions have attempted to accomodate the wishes of the employer and negotiate clear guidelines on their use regarding these incentives in-order to minimise any unfairness or discriminatory practices and clearly layout what incentives need to be achieved and when, and employers suddenly become less interested.

Think about for a second, the priority for the employer is not the granting of these rewards it's the refusing of these rewards that's the priority.

"He's only a computer operator and a nigger to boot, he's already being overpaid"! "

Unfortunately this is all to often the case, would he get a performance bonus, I think not......

"I have had people tell me I could not Rehang a Picture in my office because that was Union Job and I had to wait 3 days for the Manteniance Crew to do it"

Yes this is true also, albeit an extreme example, Unions do typically attempt to protect their jobs from being farmed out anywhere, history has also educated us to draw the line very near when it comes to out sourcing any of our work, the company has recognised the Union and the Union work through a contract, a contract that must be strickly enforced inorder to continue to be valid.

I know you see it as hanging a picture, but it is a very big picture.

"Religous beliefs"

Many Unions will defer an amount equal to the Union dues to various charitible organizations, however some of the principles that you likely expressed in attempting to get these deferrals also apply to the working for a company and taking direction from a "higher Authority" and many Unions fail to understand the difference, in other words if you can work for a company, why can you not pay Union dues when you seem ready and willing to benefit from this membership by accepting the higher wage and benefits and you seem to have no diffuculty taking direction from the employer and treating the employer as they are a "higher authority".

Unions need to be educated in this difference and will likely accommodate the request provided the Union continues to have input into where the Union dues are going and are convinced that the floodgates will in fact not open up. However it is an issue better left to legislators and many countiries have dealt with this issue through Legislation.

"I've seen people get caught red-handed for stealing big ticket items, grieve the process, and get off with a warning letter in their file."

Another very common mis-conception, actually it is very easy to discharge a unionised employee, the rules for doing so are a little more onerus, but provided they are followed discharge for theft of a big ticket item or even a small item even on the first offence is very common.

Problem is Employers generally don't wish to do this because of another factor, I again ask you to think a little differently, the employer has looked at the messaging of both actions, discharge versus no discharge and the effect on the remaining employees:

Discharge: disincentive to steal.
No-Discharge: Remaining employees become disgruntled with the Union.

Mostly employers being as greedy as they are try to kill two birds with one stone by purposely mucking up the process of the discharge thereby getting both incentives.

Employers have also learned from history that option 2 is much better and more cost effective, if the workforce is divided it serves to minimise the impact a Union can have in a workplace and this comes in handy for the employer during bargaining.

Many argue the process to discharge is confusing and easily screwed up, but I beg to differ, the process is HR 101 and has been clearly laid out through 100 years of arbitration, to the point I have seen one page instruction sheets on how to do this.

Just my 2 cents, but books and books have been written on this subject, and one final note, Unions are made up of their members and members control their Unions it is not the other way around as many would have you believe.

http://www.talk-back.ca

[Spathiphyllum]

Since we're veering way off the topic here, I'll help steer.

Originally posted by clssam
In my openion Unions have been a blessing and a curse...

I think clssam has it right, and if both union and management negotiate in good faith, it results in the most favorable outcome. Sadly, each side tends to want to squeeze the last drop of blood from the turnip and then everyone loses.

Just a local example to exemplify the opportunism of both sides. American Airlines had begun new contract renegotiations with its unions due to significant, if only temporary, stated operating losses in 2003. They were asking for relief from several unions (and threatening bankruptcy) and I thought it seemed reasonable at the time. It seemed that the flight attendants were going to sabotage the whole deal and I was ticked at them for being selfish. They finally agreed with several dramatic concessions (reduction in labor force, wages, and benefits) and the new contracts were ready to go... until it was discovered by some savvy union negotiator that the new, renegotiated contract had supplemental executive retirement plans and a huge golden-parachute clause for many in upper management that would never be threatened even if the airline filed for bankruptcy. Then I was ticked at management. Talk about an uproar! It cost the CEO his job and a realignment in the board because it became public and locals were furious.

In a nutshell, all employees in one of the most successful airlines in the world were busy trying to exploit the other side in what should have been a fair debate. But when I hear about a few people making millions while others are losing their jobs, I tend to want to side with the little guy. I've been self-employed and work in a right-to-work state. Further, I'm all for capitalism... but not boundless capitalism. Both ends of the table have beautiful points to consider and deserve to be heard; unfortunately, they always emphasize each other's warts as their greed blinds them to their own.

[the_ancient]

Ok Spathiphyllum here is another good example

a company I used to do business with became unionized because the union promised "better wages" etc etc etc

well they did get a payraise, $2/hr, so you thinking GREAT

but the union cost them 3/hr in DUES so in reality they gor a pay DECREASE at the hands of the union, and nothing has really changed


most of them are now wishing they did not go the union route


I will never work a union job, never

[Ron]

Hey Steve,

I couldn't help but notice that while you were very happy to argue hypotheticals in support of unions, that when it came to real life situations, you were mute. I could go on litterally for hours about this. I also surmise that we won't ever come to any kind of agreement on the issue(s).

So, you think that PATCO advised their members well?

You think ILGWU did a good thing for their members, my father's valued and very long term employees, virtually all of them immigrants?

We all know the theorhetical benefits and the theorhetical downsides of a union... it's in practice that's the problem.

Ever work a trade show in Boston, Chicago or New York?
I've had Teamsters physically stop us from entering a trade show because we brought a pallet jack with us to move 1 pallet of boxes into the show. I'm not sure of the number, but I seem to recall it was a couple of hundred bux to have them move the pallet. So we took out our hand truck, unloaded the pallet, and moved the boxes 6 or 8 at a time. They were boxes of pasta, not lead.

They were actually paying people to stand there and prevent the customers of the facility from using pallet jacks. Good for business! You think it's good for the business that pays their wages to have way overpriced services for labor charged to their customers? I don't THINK so!

But they made their point. Nobody on the union got any money, and my wife had to haul boxes. Everybody wins!

I am sure (after just double checking with my wife) that the charge for picking up a single pallet from the loading dock delivering it to the booth, and then the reverse is a couple hundred dollars if arranged in advance. That is for less than 5 minutes' work each way.

It's one thing to charge a competitive rate, and to offer your services to people who could do it themselves but prefer not to, it's quite another to have a monopoly on the services and to extort monies from small business people just trying to make a go of it.

Oh wait, I forgot! These facilities are built by the municipalities for the benefit of the unions at taxpayer expense and continuing loss. They don't care to make a profit, only that the unions are placated. In Boston, we just rebuilt (for the nth time) our great Hynes Auditorium convention center, and now tha the DNC is coming to town, they're putting the convention at the Fleet Center because (as all the critics told them) the Hynes is not an adequate location or size (and it loses millions of dolalrs every year). Putting the convention at the Fleet Center is a little bit of a problem, since I-93 (You know, part of the $15B "Big Dig") runs within "stick your arm out the window and touch it" distance. So they are going to close down the interstate highway for half a day each day of the convention. I kid you not! But I digress.

The model is old -- it just can't be ultimately helpful in this global economy. Some sort of union organization might work, but the current model is broken -- and you see it in your declining enrollment, in good times and in bad.

Workers should have some "rights". Let's look at balance:

Unionized workers (UW) and Non-Unionized workers (NU) have the right to leave the company that they're working for. Employers don't have the corresponding right to compel employment from either. Employers don't have the corresponding right to discharge UW at will, and most states don't allow NU workers to be discharged without cause either. A worker can sue the company if they believe they were wrongfully terminated. An employer can't sue an employee for standing up and saying "I quit" and walking out.

Risk: Employers put their own money on the line. Look at my Dad's example: He had to "sign on the line" and pledge his personal assets to secure the money he was paying in wages to his employees, on the notion that someone might pay their bills down the road. For this risk, and for employing as many as 100 people over 35 years he was rewarded with no pension, no unemployment insurance (!). Nothing.

His sales manager earned more money than he did. His sales manager was NU, he was getting paid what the market would bear. Without the sales manager there was NO business. My dad earned a very meagre amount of money every year. He was the personnel manager, the HR department, the pattern designer, the sewing machine repairman, the peacemaker. Good thing he didn't have to abide by his own job description! He'd have had to hire 5 more people! My mother was a parttime inventory control and manufacturing scheduling department. My aunt did payroll, my uncle handled the customers and the rest of the business end.

How many of those employees do you think would have put up their money to buy a single pelt? I didn't see them band together and offer to buy the business... even to buy the factory (for chump change) and to RUN the business. C'mon.... 35 people didn't want to share the risk that the Union was demanding of my dad? No. Imagine that.

If unions were eliminated from the face of the country tomorrow, there would be fewer people employed, no doubt. Those still employed would have to work a full workweek. Productivity up, profits up, prices down.

Those still employed, if they didn't like the work conditions or pay, could vote with their feet. We don't live in single-employer towns anymore. Yes, there are some places where that still exists -- mining towns, a few small towns. We are a mobile society. If there are no jobs to your liking in East Podunk, move to West Overshoe. Nobody is promised an easy life in this country, just one of opportunity.

My industry is now going through what manufacturing has been going through with offshore outsorcing. You don't hear me clamoring for unionization to keep our overpaid jobs at home! Move on. Find a new way to make a living. On the 'net perhaps.

And I could bring my pallet jack to my next trade show.

[Ron]

Just for those interested:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/poli...78/detail.html

Watch the video (not a great example of David's usual borderline speaking abilities)

The big white square of a building that you see just to the left of the big white cables of the brand new Zakim Bunker Hill bridge is the Fleet Center (right next to where the old Boston Garden was).

Also, though the video is hard to see, there is a major transportation HUB there, where all of the commuter rail, subway and most of the bus lines from north of the city converge.

I guess it's a good thing that the RNC or the Green Party, or the Reform Party wasn't trying to shut down Boston for a week.