Tuesday High

[Tatsurou]

Now I've e-mailed this three times; twice to the abuse department, and once to the support department. I hope I can get my voice heard finally:

To whom it may concern,

Over the summer and for some time now, the members of the forum at tuesdayhigh.org (http://www.tuesdayhigh.org/forums/), have been posting inappropriate material on popular webforums, including my own. In their posts, they would spam, post pornography, post threatening images (including nazi symbols), and just cause havoc wherever they went.

Our website, at www.byebyereality.com, wasn't the first webforum to be attacked. They went after Tofurecords.com, Gaiaonline.com, Batsu.sektor5.com, and a few others. On their forum, they discuss their "organized raids" in topics such as this:
http://www.tuesdayhigh.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89

Quoting from your own policy:

Threats and unlawful conduct : Use of our service to transmit any material (by e-mail, uploading, posting or otherwise) that threatens or encourages bodily harm or destruction of property. Use of our services to transmit any material (by e-mail, uploading, posting or otherwise) that harasses another

I do hope some sort of action will be taken against these people. They have caused us to shut our own forums down for the time being and clean them up because of what was posted and I do not feel that they deserve to continue doing what they are doing. I ask that you look over their forums and see what is going on at least.

Their URLs once again:
http://www.tuesdayhigh.org/forums/
http://www.tuesdayhigh.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89

Thank you in advance,

John N.
*the rest taken out for privacy*

[Joshua Clinard]

I have just submitted a support ticket letting support know of the problem, so they will be aware of it right away. I will let you know when they respond to the ticket.

[Tatsurou]

Thank you for your help.

[Tatsurou]

I'm still waiting for some sort of response. I just hope this is not being ignored. Thank you Joshua Clinard for trying.

[jason]

With all due respect, I don't think JPC can really do much to help you. Although they do host the site that the inappropriate posters on your site allegedly run, the posts themselves most likely didn't come through the JPC servers. Instead the posts probably originated from camputers connected via some ISP that is outside the realm of JPC. You should trace the IP addresses that the posts originated from and contact the ISP's that are responsible for those IP's.

Without more thorough review you cannot state that the owners of the site in question are even the ones that posted to your board. Perhaps it was someone who had a bone to pick with teh owners. I'm not familiar with the site in question or its content (if the content hosted on the server is in violation of the AUP, that is another story). However, anyone can go to any public forum and post something that says they are from another site--there is no way for the forum to check the legitimacy of that claim. I have no affiliation with Microsoft, but I could go to a public forum (even this one), post racial slurs or whatnot, and sign it Bill Gates, but there is no reason to hold Microsoft responsible for such actions.

I wish you the best of luck in resolving these issues in whatever means possible. Unfortunately, I on't think there is anything that JPC can legally do to help you.

--Jason

[Spathiphyllum]

Gotta agree with Jason here. One is responsible for the content of their site, especially in regards to bulletin boards and the like. You, as webmaster, have opted to handle such postings by installing the software. It is one of the unfortunate side-effects of hosting a public forum and allowing those that want to cause trouble even if you tell them that they are not wanted. You may need to look for a bulletin board that can block subscribers by IP or other measure though there are always methods of circumventing your impediments. Such is the nature the internet and untrusted browsers.

[Ron]

Wait a sec. Hypothetically, if a company --let's call it Company "J"-- hosts a website on which cyber-terrorism is tolerated in violation of Company J's AUP

Content : You are responsible for any and all content in and under your site or account at all times. All services provided by [Company J] may be used for lawful purposes only. Transmission, storage, or presentation of any information, data or material in violation of any United States Federal, State or City law is prohibited.

[...]

The following constitute violations :

Threats and unlawful conduct : Use of our service to transmit any material (by e-mail, uploading, posting or otherwise) that threatens or encourages bodily harm or destruction of property. Use of our services to transmit any material (by e-mail, uploading, posting or otherwise) that harasses another.

[...]

Attacks and Exploits : Any activity which affects the ability of other people or systems to use any services or other internet services. This includes "denial of service" (DOS) attacks against another network host or individual user. Interference with or disruption of other network users, services or equipment is prohibited. It is the client's responsibility to ensure that their server is configured in a secure manner. A client may not, through action or inaction, allow others to use their network for illegal or inappropriate actions.[Emphasis mine]

and such cyber-terrorism is brought to the attention of Company J, and is well founded, shouldn't Company J at least send an email or two asking their client to knock it the heck off, and if the request is not accommodated, give them the big boot?

(I didn't re-read Company J's AUP and TOS documents completely, but I don't recall a severability clause nor a waiver clause nor a non-or-selective-or-delayed enforcement clause. Not that I'm a lawyer, but without those, inaction against one violator in one area might make both unenforcable, at least in regard to the one violator, perhaps to all clients.)

The real point is, why are you guys "defending" inappropriate content on one of Company J's servers? If these cucumbers tick off the wrong people, it could lead to DDoS attacks against Company J's network.

Just my two hypothetical cents worth.

[Tatsurou]

Listen, if you didn't click the links I had mentioned, you would probably jump to the conclusions that you did. If you look at the forums, you'll notice that the owners of the forums post there constantly, especially in the "organized raid" sections. I understand it's a possibility that is not them, but when the ENTIRE forum is used to discuss which forums to "take down" next, wouldn't you think that is enough to have the host at least talk to them about what they're doing? Are you telling me just because it's a public forum that they can do anything they wish? Even though everything they are doing goes against the hosts policies, all the nazi symbols, threats against other forums and blatant posts saying such things as "Let's attack tofurecords.com" and "Wow, I just got banned. Time to go change my proxy IP, get a new name, and try again".

At least Ron understands my problem. It's not like they are just attacking my forums. There's not just one person saying "I don't like this guy, I'm gonna attack him from my forum". The ONE reason this forum is still active is because people get together on it and organize attacks on other forums they dislike. If all they did was talk wrongly about other forums on their OWN forum, then I would not bring this to anyone's attention (even though everything they talk about still goes against the AUP).

I do not understand why you guys, Jason and Spathiphyllum, are defending what they are doing. I wish I could collect all their IPs together and contact their ISPs, but if you read their forums like I had asked, you'll notice they only use their exact IPs on their own forum, and I cannot collect this information as just a user. When they attack other forums, they go to a search engine and get anonymous proxy IPs and sign up with them. So nothing I could do on my own forum would keep them banned or let me trace their actual IP. Once again, I am waiting for someone from the actual host to discuss this with me and hopefully get something done. I really hope something will happen, because otherwise their policies are pointless.

[Vin DSL]

Hahahaha! You guys look all like a bunch of east LA mongols - or something out of a Jackie Chan movie. You don't drive Honda CiViC's by any chance, do you? I'm looking for a H22A...

[Vin DSL]

BTW, Tatsurou, are these buckwheats actually attacking your site[s], as in hacking them, taking control of the admin functions and defacing them, and so forth, or are they just posting things you don't like?

[Ron]

Vin, what they are doing is illegal. They are trying to make this guy's forum unusable.. that's Denial of Service (perhaps not in the "classic" sense). They are coordinating attacks, circumventing protection schemes, tresspassing where they are not wanted and have been asked to leave.

How would you like it if someone did that at your site? As a matter of fact, I recall you on here whining about being hacked, and being attacked and probed. You seem to be off of your empathy medicine again...

[Ron]

I do not understand why you guys, Jason and Spathiphyllum, are defending what they are doing.

I don't think they're defending them. I think they beleive(d) that JAG wasn't the proper avenue for you to pursue.

[Spathiphyllum]

Tatsurou,

I have two overall responses, the second of which is the line of thinking if you are hosted at Jaguar and the abusive site is hosted elsewhere. That was an assumption I made based on the original post and not originally doing a DNS/webhost search for the listed domains. I gather now that the reverse is true and that you are an aggrieved webmaster at another webhost and the offending forum is hosted by a client on Jaguar's servers.

Scenario 1 - Jaguar is inadvertantly hosting a rogue site (revised thinking)

Yes, Jaguar probably should do something to help you but I'm not sure what. A notice would seem to be appropriate and proper initially... the rationale to be to gauge whether the forum host is an active participant in questionable activities or a victim as well. If no observable behavior change is noted, then harsher measures would seem reasonable up to and including suspending the account and/or reporting to a legal entity.


Scenario 2 - Alt_Jaguar is inadvertantly hosting a rogue site (original thinking)

I didn't "jump to any conclusions" since I did follow the links and read the questionable posts. I also abhor the practice of establishing a public, anonymous, and ill-intentioned collection of cybercrackers or what-have-yous and hope they get flayed alive if caught... metaphorically of course since I would never condone physical violence.

The question you posed is one of culpability and law. Jaguar, your webhost, is renting out space to you, the webmaster who is being independently attacked by members aggregating on a third-party's forum hosted on another webhost. Jaguar cannot change the policy of the other webhost nor the policy of the webmaster of the now offensive forum. It would seem that your only recourse is to petition for relief the other webmaster on the other webhost or the other webhost administrator to reign in the rogue forum.

Now, "[Am I telling you] just because it's a public forum that they can do anything they wish?" Not by a long shot. And the barriers of control are posted in the legalese mentioned by Ron. But, again, Jaguar has no control over that as far as I can tell. It would seem that you should peruse the user agreements of the third-party webhost and, if you find a violation, report it to the administrator (as well as the other forum manager) and await their response. Keep a record of their actions, log all correspondence, archive what you feel is neccesary, and if you become dissatisfied with their inaction, report it to the FBI cybercrime division. They have an online form you can fill out to expedite the process and you could even notify the other webhost of your report once it's filed. I'll not recommend exactly what to do because I'm not a lawyer and I don't know how involved you really want to get.


Conclusion

Depending on the scenario, Jaguar has different obligations. If I were hosting a site that had to have the forum being abused and it was being attacked, I'd start prepping legal papers, after collecting appropriate data, and be prepared to file. I'd submit a report to the FBI and start pooling money for legal fees. I'd then weigh the expected cost/benefit ratio of legal action (and to what degree of action to partake) to inaction or a change/ommission of software.

I have done this before for copyright infringement so you must treat this VERY seriously. It might be apples and oranges but it is law that is involved with potentially expensive repercussions so very considered thought is necessary on your part.

[jason]

I'm not trying to condone or defend what the rouges are doing to your site, I'm just saying that I don't think that JPC can legally do much to help you. I'll admit that I didn't look too deeply at the site you posted, but I just clicked on a few links now, and from what I saw, there is a lot of legitimate discussion going on on that board. It isn't just a "hacker site" so to speak, and there is no way to discern if the owners of the site are the ones responsible for the activity on your and others' sites or if they are just careless webmasters who don't monitor what's happening on their site. JPC's area of responsibility is simply in the realm of what happens on the server they own. They should probably issue a warning to the owners to clean up their act with regard to content that breaks the AUP (followed by a possible shutdown if they don't comply), but there is a very fine line between what is an AUP violation and what is considered a First Amendment right. As I said before, the rogues probably didn't use JPC resources in the actual carrying out of the attack on your site. If they were using the site to send spam or to phish personal information from unsuspecting victims or something else where JPC servers were being used in the actual execution of the illegal activity, then JPC has every reason to shut them down immeadiatly (and I know they do this, as I've helped alert them to a phishing scheme one time and the site in question was down in a couple of hours). But, since they are just using this site as a communication mechanism, there is a grey area.

Like Spathy, I'm not an attorney. I'm sure JPC has an attorney that they consult on these types of matters (I'm sure they come up often), but I don't know their protocol in dealing with such things. My advice to you is the same as Spathy's--collect as much information about what has happened as possible (including printouts of any evidence from the site here at JPC, just in case it goes away) and contact your own legal counsel and/or the FBI cybercrime office. These types of things are serious and need to be dealt with quickly, since the Internet is so fickle. From the sounds of things, the rogues took great steps to cover their tracks. It may be difficult--and potentially expensive--to track them down, but there are legal avenues to persue.

--Jason

[Tatsurou]

I have submitted a formal complaint to the IFCC (Internet Fraud Complaint Center). This was the only place to be able to submit such a complaint through the FBI Cybercrime department. Thank you all for discussing this problem, but I do hope the host is able to do something, such as discuss this with the forum in question, without using names or our own direct website in question (in case they decide to hack us or the other forums in question). I'll discuss more about this when I have the time.